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	<title>Comments on: Un-Fabulous Employer: asking for too much upfront</title>
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	<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/</link>
	<description>So, kids are mostly raised &#38; I&#039;ve just gone back to work...</description>
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		<title>By: Almostgotit.com &#124; Rejection letters should not be emailed</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1355</link>
		<dc:creator>Almostgotit.com &#124; Rejection letters should not be emailed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1355</guid>
		<description>[...] away. &#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- Related posts: Employers: It&#8217;s Your Turn to be Fabulous Un-Fabulous Employers: Asking for Too Much Upfront Blind Box Ads: Bad-Ass, or just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] away. &#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- Related posts: Employers: It&#8217;s Your Turn to be Fabulous Un-Fabulous Employers: Asking for Too Much Upfront Blind Box Ads: Bad-Ass, or just [...]</p>
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		<title>By: almostgotit</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1316</link>
		<dc:creator>almostgotit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1316</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Linda, thanks very much for this illustration.  I agree that some clarification re te email-rejection-rule is in order, and I think I share your sense of things.  An email rejection would be fine in almost any case that I&#039;ve been forewarned email would be used, for one .  And I think it would also be appropriate if, say, an applicantion is received when there has been no solicitation for applications.  BUT.  Once an individual candidacy has reached the point where quite a lot of time (and often money) has been invested by both parties, a quick email rejection is no longer sufficient.  &lt;/em&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Linda, thanks very much for this illustration.  I agree that some clarification re te email-rejection-rule is in order, and I think I share your sense of things.  An email rejection would be fine in almost any case that I&#8217;ve been forewarned email would be used, for one .  And I think it would also be appropriate if, say, an applicantion is received when there has been no solicitation for applications.  BUT.  Once an individual candidacy has reached the point where quite a lot of time (and often money) has been invested by both parties, a quick email rejection is no longer sufficient.  </em></p>
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		<title>By: Linda Sherwood</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1313</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Sherwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1313</guid>
		<description>Since I&#039;m the one that mentioned e-mail rejections, I wanted to clarify. I&#039;ve applied for writing jobs online, such as columnists, and I&#039;ve learned I didn&#039;t get the job by reading posts from the writer who DID get the job before I heard from the employer. Sometimes days past before I finally received an e-mail saying I didn&#039;t get it. I definitely think candidates who didn&#039;t get the job need to be notified pretty quickly. And if you make it clear you will be notifying by e-mail, I don&#039;t have a problem with it.

When do I think an e-mail rejection is inappropriate? There does come a time in the search process when there are just two or three candidates for a top-level position. Often the job hiring process involves travel from both the candidate and often the search committee. When I worked as a reporter, I witnessed a number of superintendent job searches. Final candidates came to the area and spent at least two days. The search committee also traveled to the candidate&#039;s current school district. A lot of time, effort and money was spent by both sides. It was a very public process, and I just think candidates with that much invested should hear they didn&#039;t get the job through a phone call instead of by e-mail or worse yet -- reading about it in the newspaper. 

Of course, this extensive interview process doesn&#039;t happen for all positions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since I&#8217;m the one that mentioned e-mail rejections, I wanted to clarify. I&#8217;ve applied for writing jobs online, such as columnists, and I&#8217;ve learned I didn&#8217;t get the job by reading posts from the writer who DID get the job before I heard from the employer. Sometimes days past before I finally received an e-mail saying I didn&#8217;t get it. I definitely think candidates who didn&#8217;t get the job need to be notified pretty quickly. And if you make it clear you will be notifying by e-mail, I don&#8217;t have a problem with it.</p>
<p>When do I think an e-mail rejection is inappropriate? There does come a time in the search process when there are just two or three candidates for a top-level position. Often the job hiring process involves travel from both the candidate and often the search committee. When I worked as a reporter, I witnessed a number of superintendent job searches. Final candidates came to the area and spent at least two days. The search committee also traveled to the candidate&#8217;s current school district. A lot of time, effort and money was spent by both sides. It was a very public process, and I just think candidates with that much invested should hear they didn&#8217;t get the job through a phone call instead of by e-mail or worse yet &#8212; reading about it in the newspaper. </p>
<p>Of course, this extensive interview process doesn&#8217;t happen for all positions.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan McCarthy</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1304</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan McCarthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1304</guid>
		<description>Almostgotit – 

Thanks for asking for my input. I’ve spent some time reading your blog and I love your writing style. I’m now a subscriber.

From where I sit, I’m not seeing an imbalance between blogs (or books) on how to be a better job candidate and how to be a better employer (or leader). 

The bloggers I read – and their readers – seem to spend as much time boss bashing as they do sharing whacky job candidate stories – probably even more so. 

Great companies – and great leaders – will usually attract and retain the best employees.  I’ll admit, often in spite of some obnoxious and silly HR systems and practices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almostgotit – </p>
<p>Thanks for asking for my input. I’ve spent some time reading your blog and I love your writing style. I’m now a subscriber.</p>
<p>From where I sit, I’m not seeing an imbalance between blogs (or books) on how to be a better job candidate and how to be a better employer (or leader). </p>
<p>The bloggers I read – and their readers – seem to spend as much time boss bashing as they do sharing whacky job candidate stories – probably even more so. </p>
<p>Great companies – and great leaders – will usually attract and retain the best employees.  I’ll admit, often in spite of some obnoxious and silly HR systems and practices.</p>
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		<title>By: Working Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1303</link>
		<dc:creator>Working Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1303</guid>
		<description>You be hot, almostgotit.  

You be smokin&#039;.  

Brava!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You be hot, almostgotit.  </p>
<p>You be smokin&#8217;.  </p>
<p>Brava!</p>
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		<title>By: almostgotit</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1302</link>
		<dc:creator>almostgotit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1302</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Great comments, C.E. and Wenchie!  I was hoping for a little HR &lt;strike&gt;attitude&lt;/strike&gt; balance, here! :)  &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Great comments, C.E. and Wenchie!  I was hoping for a little HR <strike>attitude</strike> balance, here! <img src='http://www.almostgotit.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   </em></p>
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		<title>By: HR Wench</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1301</link>
		<dc:creator>HR Wench</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1301</guid>
		<description>If you aren&#039;t seeing blog posts and articles about how &quot;employers need to be fabulous too&quot; then I think maybe you&#039;re looking in the wrong places.  This is a topic I talk about all the time on my blog...and not just as a job seeker, as an HR professional.

But I agree, in the mainstream media, the topic is always how job seekers need to act.  Well, I think that is because individuals consume mainstream media.  Companies consume industry/field specific media.

There are tons of sites out there that try to smack companies up side the head when it comes to their crappy recruiting processes.  Many companies are listening.  Many are not.  Go with the ones that appear to be listening :) That&#039;s what I do.

Just like being a job seeker, being in HR is no picnic.  You wouldn&#039;t believe the craptacular things we go through with bad candidates, bad hiring managers and bad policies.  Fighting the good fight can be very, very tiring.  We get cranky too :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you aren&#8217;t seeing blog posts and articles about how &#8220;employers need to be fabulous too&#8221; then I think maybe you&#8217;re looking in the wrong places.  This is a topic I talk about all the time on my blog&#8230;and not just as a job seeker, as an HR professional.</p>
<p>But I agree, in the mainstream media, the topic is always how job seekers need to act.  Well, I think that is because individuals consume mainstream media.  Companies consume industry/field specific media.</p>
<p>There are tons of sites out there that try to smack companies up side the head when it comes to their crappy recruiting processes.  Many companies are listening.  Many are not.  Go with the ones that appear to be listening <img src='http://www.almostgotit.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  That&#8217;s what I do.</p>
<p>Just like being a job seeker, being in HR is no picnic.  You wouldn&#8217;t believe the craptacular things we go through with bad candidates, bad hiring managers and bad policies.  Fighting the good fight can be very, very tiring.  We get cranky too <img src='http://www.almostgotit.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Career Encourager</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1300</link>
		<dc:creator>Career Encourager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1300</guid>
		<description>Couple of things to add to the discussion...first, I totally agree that if I was looking for a job I would NEVER apply for a job that required past salary info and/or references up front.  That&#039;s part of me valuing myself as a candidate and seeking out employers where I think I can be a match. Also, when I am helping clients staff a job I don&#039;t request that info in the job posting.  In fact, I don&#039;t see many jobs that do request that info these days except for government joobs and academic jobs.  

Second - I totally agree with Ask A Manager about e-mail.  I tell candidates during the interview what the process will be if they are selected to move on, and that if they are not selected they will hear from me via e-mail by a certain date.  That way they shouldn&#039;t be surprised by the e-mail. I use it for the exact reasons Ask A Manager suggests - because it&#039;s faster and because once the decision is made I don&#039;t intend to dispute it with the candidate. 

Finally - I agree with Mr. Budd.  Lazy hiring procedures will be the death of any organization.   I have made my business not as a headhunter, but as an external consultant who comes into organizations to run search committees.  It&#039;s amazing how hungry the hiring managers are for someone to help them &quot;get it right&quot; and how they are so grateful to have someone outline a good quality process that treats the candidates well - and also treats the committee and the existing staff well.  It&#039;s so fun to make a good hire under those circumstances!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of things to add to the discussion&#8230;first, I totally agree that if I was looking for a job I would NEVER apply for a job that required past salary info and/or references up front.  That&#8217;s part of me valuing myself as a candidate and seeking out employers where I think I can be a match. Also, when I am helping clients staff a job I don&#8217;t request that info in the job posting.  In fact, I don&#8217;t see many jobs that do request that info these days except for government joobs and academic jobs.  </p>
<p>Second &#8211; I totally agree with Ask A Manager about e-mail.  I tell candidates during the interview what the process will be if they are selected to move on, and that if they are not selected they will hear from me via e-mail by a certain date.  That way they shouldn&#8217;t be surprised by the e-mail. I use it for the exact reasons Ask A Manager suggests &#8211; because it&#8217;s faster and because once the decision is made I don&#8217;t intend to dispute it with the candidate. </p>
<p>Finally &#8211; I agree with Mr. Budd.  Lazy hiring procedures will be the death of any organization.   I have made my business not as a headhunter, but as an external consultant who comes into organizations to run search committees.  It&#8217;s amazing how hungry the hiring managers are for someone to help them &#8220;get it right&#8221; and how they are so grateful to have someone outline a good quality process that treats the candidates well &#8211; and also treats the committee and the existing staff well.  It&#8217;s so fun to make a good hire under those circumstances!</p>
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		<title>By: almostgotit</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator>almostgotit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1299</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Confession:  I have heard via email that I didn&#039;t get a job, but always because I&#039;ve emailed some inside person first to informally ask (many places wait to send out rejection letters until the job is filled, which in my experience -- mostly with universities -- can be WEEKS after the final candidates have already been chosen.  And sometimes I&#039;ve just grown tired of waiting!)  

I do think that formal &quot;rejections&quot; should arrive by postal mail, and as a courtesy should be sent out as soon as possible.  I have invested time and care in applying, and I think I deserve a little of both in return. Using the mail-merge function on a form letter would be formal enough, and should be both quick and relatively inexpensive.  Granted, job searches do take time and cost money, but that&#039;s appropriate in my opinion.  They are (again, according to Peter Drucker) the most important thing any organization does!  I&#039;ll have to write a longer post on &quot;Rejection Letters&quot; sometime soon, based on my extensive collection.

Thanks for the terrific comments!&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Confession:  I have heard via email that I didn&#8217;t get a job, but always because I&#8217;ve emailed some inside person first to informally ask (many places wait to send out rejection letters until the job is filled, which in my experience &#8212; mostly with universities &#8212; can be WEEKS after the final candidates have already been chosen.  And sometimes I&#8217;ve just grown tired of waiting!)  </p>
<p>I do think that formal &#8220;rejections&#8221; should arrive by postal mail, and as a courtesy should be sent out as soon as possible.  I have invested time and care in applying, and I think I deserve a little of both in return. Using the mail-merge function on a form letter would be formal enough, and should be both quick and relatively inexpensive.  Granted, job searches do take time and cost money, but that&#8217;s appropriate in my opinion.  They are (again, according to Peter Drucker) the most important thing any organization does!  I&#8217;ll have to write a longer post on &#8220;Rejection Letters&#8221; sometime soon, based on my extensive collection.</p>
<p>Thanks for the terrific comments!</em></p>
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		<title>By: Ask a Manager</title>
		<link>http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/comment-page-1/#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator>Ask a Manager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.almostgotit.com/2008/07/09/un-fabulous-employers-asking-for-too-much-upfront/#comment-1298</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested to hear more about the objections to using email to notify someone they didn&#039;t get a job. My organization uses email for this because it&#039;s faster than postal mail (cheaper too). Phone is out as an option, unfortunately, because too many candidates have tried to use the phone call as a way to dispute the decision.  Personally, I wouldn&#039;t mind receiving a job rejection over email, and I&#039;m curious to learn why you dislike it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested to hear more about the objections to using email to notify someone they didn&#8217;t get a job. My organization uses email for this because it&#8217;s faster than postal mail (cheaper too). Phone is out as an option, unfortunately, because too many candidates have tried to use the phone call as a way to dispute the decision.  Personally, I wouldn&#8217;t mind receiving a job rejection over email, and I&#8217;m curious to learn why you dislike it.</p>
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